Hello Mike,

I agree with most of your post, but I have to point out that Hitler >>declared war on the US on Dec 11, 1941. Hitler was also sinking US ships >>that were carrying supplies to Britain.

True but, if the US had also not been involved in WWI, I am wondering if
the attitude towards the US would have been different. Germany was
destroyed by the concessions they made during their WWI surrender. To an >extent, I feel like they were out for revenge against all of the countries >that put them in that position.

Still, with the U-boats patrolling the whole North Atlantic (and likely,
the Gulf of Mexico), conflict of some degree was inevitable, as you noted >below.

There is a sunken German U-boat just off the coast of Grand Isle,
Louisiana. I was invited to take part in a scuba expedition to try
to salvage parts. But the German government stopped us from doing
so, claiming it was protected by international law, being a gravesite
for those who had perished. Whether there was gold bullion inside
or not, we never were able to find out ...

Note that Roosevelt minor had the US Navy involved in World War II long >>before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. The "Greer Incident," where
the US destroyer Greer was fired on by a U-Boat, occurred because the
Greer had detected the U-Boat and radioed for British aircraft (from >>Canada) to come and bomb it. The U-Boat captain had no idea who'd
dropped the bomb/depth charges and the only ship around was the Greer.
This sort of thing was quite common in 1940-1941

The US was also secretly involved supporting China against Japan long
before Pearl Harbor. WWII actually started in 1937 when Japan escalated >their aggressions against China by invading Shanghai and other areas. The
US supported China with supplies and, I believe, volunteers (like The
Flying Tigers).

Unfortunately, the US supported the wrong China, refusing to
recognize the other China as legitimate. It took Jimmy Carter
to change that, many decades later.

Many believe that Pearl Harbor was unprovoked, but I have often wondered if
Japan did not figure out that the US was not being as neutral as we claimed to be.

In Japan's view, it was just a warning to the US to stay out of
the Pacific. A limited strike by Japanese military on a US military installation in a US territory, not on civilian targets or in the
mainland USA. A pinprick, which the Japanese military leadership
calculated would be enough to convince FDR to stay out.

The outcry among the American public forced FDR and the Congress
to accept the reality that the US was in a war, started by the
Empire of Japan. Leaving no choice for FDR and the Congress but
to do what none of them were brave enough to do themselves.

--Lee

--
Our Nuts, Your Mouth

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Hello Greg,

LL> >Iran better choose their choose their actions with extreme calculation, a
LL> > must don't attack any American military, if they do it will be curtains
LL> > Iran. Permanently I am afraid.... According the Presidents tweets.
LL>
LL> Do you honestly believe anybody pays any attention to
LL> the presidents tweets? The democratically elected leader
LL> of Venezuela certainly doesn't. And neither does the tinhorn
LL> dictator of North Korea. Or the democratically elected leader
LL> of Russia. Or the president-for-life of China. So what makes
LL> you think the mullahs of Iran pay any attention?

He got someone's attention in Iran, they are not firing any more rockets
into
Iraq nor are they attacking the U.S. Forces in the waterways that is close
to
Iran. They got the message that if attacked The United States will end you.

You may not be aware of this, but Trump ordered 4 out of our 5
aircraft carriers to enter inside the Persian Gulf, in an effort
to intimidate Iran. The Strait of Hormuz is too shallow for a
US aircraft carrier to enter, except during high tide - along with
dredging to make it passable.

Iran does have missiles capable of sinking an aircraft carrier,
along with underwater torpedoes. What do you think the reaction
would be if just one of our aircraft carriers was hit, or sunk?
You are talking 5,000+ dead American sailors.

This would be a debacle, much worse than the events of 9-11.

--Lee

--
Sleep With Someone New

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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On 25 May 2019, Lee Lofaso said the following...

Hello Greg,

LL> >Iran better choose their choose their actions with extreme calculation, a
LL> > must don't attack any American military, if they do it will be curtains
LL> > Iran. Permanently I am afraid.... According the Presidents tweet
LL>
LL> Do you honestly believe anybody pays any attention to
LL> the presidents tweets? The democratically elected leader
LL> of Venezuela certainly doesn't. And neither does the tinhorn
LL> dictator of North Korea. Or the democratically elected leader
LL> of Russia. Or the president-for-life of China. So what makes
LL> you think the mullahs of Iran pay any attention?

He got someone's attention in Iran, they are not firing any more rockets
into LL> >Iraq nor are they attacking the U.S. Forces in the waterways

that is close

to
Iran. They got the message that if attacked The United States will end yo

You may not be aware of this, but Trump ordered 4 out of our 5
aircraft carriers to enter inside the Persian Gulf, in an effort
to intimidate Iran.

More of like message written in big block style letters, lets call it a strong persuasion that says Peace through Strength.

Iran does have missiles capable of sinking an aircraft carrier,
along with underwater torpedoes. What do you think the reaction
would be if just one of our aircraft carriers was hit, or sunk?
You are talking 5,000+ dead American sailors.

It would be suicidal to attack the U.S. forces.
It would be a mis-calulation, that would cost them their very existence.
Iran would be nothing more then a memory.

This would be a debacle, much worse than the events of 9-11.

Nothing is worse then 9-11

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
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On 22 May 2019, BOB ACKLEY said the following...

Iran better choose their choose their actions with extreme

calculation, and

must don't attack any American military, if they do it will be

curtains

Iran. Permanently I am afraid.... According the Presidents tweets.

Maybe. But I hope nothing happens there

That would depend how suicidal the Iranian Government is.

That the US military could destroy the Iranian government is a given.
But it would cost one h*ll of a lot of lives (on both sides), and the
conflict would expand throughout the Middle East. Iran will try - and
probably succeed to some extent - to make it a war of the US against
Islam, and ALL Islamics are required by their religion to respond to any attack. In short, it's not a good idea.
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
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I agree with most of your post, but I have to point out that Hitler declared war on the US on Dec 11, 1941. Hitler was also sinking US ships that were carrying supplies to Britain.

True but, if the US had also not been involved in WWI, I am wondering if
the attitude towards the US would have been different. Germany was
destroyed by the concessions they made during their WWI surrender. To an extent, I feel like they were out for revenge against all of the countries that put them in that position.

Actually, what happened is that the German goverment continued its
generous social spending programs after WW I. Unfortunately the war reparations demanded by the Allies pretty much destroyed the German
economy. In about 1922 or 1923 the German economy collapsed due to
rampant (100 percent per DAY) inflation, and with it went the German government. That provided an avenue for Hitler to get into power.

--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
* Origin: Fido Since 1991 | QWK by Web | BBS.FIDOSYSOP.ORG (1:123/140)

That would depend how suicidal the Iranian Government is.

That the US military could destroy the Iranian government is a given.
But it would cost one h*ll of a lot of lives (on both sides), and the

True... many of the innocent would parish - on both sides.

Iran will try probably succeed to some extent - to make it a war of the US Islam, and ALL Islamics are required by their religion to respond to any attack.

I am also highly motivated and driven in my belief.
Belief #1 protect my family, if they are triggered by the religion fine so be it. Trust me when I not fail or faultier in my duty.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
* Origin: Capital Station BBS * telnet://csbbs.dyndns.org * (1:267/150)

Hello Greg,

[..]

You may not be aware of this, but Trump ordered 4 out of our 5
aircraft carriers to enter inside the Persian Gulf, in an effort
to intimidate Iran.

More of like message written in big block style letters, lets call it a
strong persuasion that says Peace through Strength.

That did not work out so well in Afghanistan, where we are still
stuck with no way to get out. That also did not work out so well
in Iraq, which continues to be a snake pit. We need another war
in that area of the world like we need a hole in the head.

Iran does have missiles capable of sinking an aircraft carrier,
along with underwater torpedoes. What do you think the reaction
would be if just one of our aircraft carriers was hit, or sunk?
You are talking 5,000+ dead American sailors.

It would be suicidal to attack the U.S. forces.

Osama bin Laden and his merry group of al-Qaeda did it for years.
GWB allowed him and his merry men to escape Afghanistan. Thank
goodness we had a man from Kenya who saved our ass by actually
having the balls to "terminate with extreme prejudice" that piece
of shit.

It would be a mis-calulation, that would cost them their very existence.
Iran would be nothing more then a memory.

Would it? Jimmy Carter got our embassy personnel home safe and sound,
without resorting to war with Iran. How many American lives is Trump
willing to waste by going to war with Iran for no reason?

This would be a debacle, much worse than the events of 9-11.

Nothing is worse then 9-11

The events of 9-11 was just a dry run for what comes next.

--Lee

--
Nobody Beats Our Meat

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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On 25 May 2019, Lee Lofaso said the following...

Hello Greg,

[..]

You may not be aware of this, but Trump ordered 4 out of our 5 >LL>aircraft carriers to enter inside the Persian Gulf, in an effort >LL>to intimidate Iran.

More of like message written in big block style letters, lets call it a
strong persuasion that says Peace through Strength.

That did not work out so well in Afghanistan, where we are still
stuck with no way to get out. That also did not work out so well
in Iraq, which continues to be a snake pit. We need another war
in that area of the world like we need a hole in the head.

Iran does have missiles capable of sinking an aircraft carrier, >LL>along with underwater torpedoes. What do you think the reaction >LL>would be if just one of our aircraft carriers was hit, or sunk? >LL>You are talking 5,000+ dead American sailors.

It would be suicidal to attack the U.S. forces.

Osama bin Laden and his merry group of al-Qaeda did it for years.
GWB allowed him and his merry men to escape Afghanistan. Thank
goodness we had a man from Kenya who saved our ass by actually
having the balls to "terminate with extreme prejudice" that piece
of shit.

Who said anything about going in there like a Dalek.

It would be a mis-calulation, that would cost them their very existence.
Iran would be nothing more then a memory.

Would it? Jimmy Carter got our embassy personnel home safe and sound, without resorting to war with Iran. How many American lives is Trump willing to waste by going to war with Iran for no reason?

This depends on the amount of stupidity that used by the Iranian Government.

What happened with Obama or GWB, in the region - good or bad is one thing.

It would be unwise for the Iranian Government to test Trump.

Innocent lives will be lost on both sides.

Many say or are downright clueless / U.S. has no right being there.

The U.S. forces are there to ensure that the Strait of Hormuz remains open
for shipping, mainly for oil for Asian countries.
Even the hint of closing the strait causes world markets to jump.

further reading

What If Iran Were to Attempt a Strait Closure?

Iran's closure of the Strait would not involve employing its naval forces to physically occupy the waterways in a conventional sense. Rather, it would make the Strait impassable utilizing an Anti-Access/Area-Denial strategy (A2/AD) strategy. For Iran, mines would form the centerpiece of this strategy to turn the choke point into a no-go zone. Afterwards, it can use land-based anti-ship missiles (ASMs) to prevent clearance operations or to directly target enemy warships and civilian shipping. Should Iranian leadership deem it necessary to deploy naval forces, the IRGC possesses a large fleet of small fast-attack craft. Though lightly armed, the craft can prove a menace to conventional warships, via the use of swarming tactics to overwhelm adversaries and employ hit-and-run attacks that are notoriously difficult to counter. On a higher level, Iran could target United States and allied military facilities in the region or even civilian population centers with ballistic missiles as a means of deterrence.

The ability of the United States and its allies to re-open the Strait of
Hormuz comes down to preparation. Should advance warning be received of an impending closure attempt, the forces of Central Command (CENTCOM) would mobilize and naval forces, particularly one or more aircraft carrier strike groups would be rushed to region to force Iran to alter its calculations or
to intervene before it makes much progress in making the waterways
impassible. Should the United States and its allies be caught off-guard, then the costs of re-opening the Strait could be exorbitant.

For example, Gay and Kemp estimated the cost of a Hormuz mine-clearance operation to be $230.1 million. Even something as routine as maintaining two carrier strike groups (CSGs) on-station for a week was estimated to be $106 million. In the event of a more serious military confrontation, a 2017 RAND report calls for the deployment of, among other things, twenty-one Air Force fighter squadrons and four CSGs. It is more difficult to estimate human casualties, but these numbers make clear there are prohibitive up-front costs to a crisis in the Strait of Hormuz, whether a full-blown shooting war erupts or not.

However, for reasons outlined earlier, the likelihood of a surprise closure
is remarkably low. The United States and its allies are well-aware of such a possibility and have been, for decades, well-prepared for the scenario. The military superiority of the United States and its allies all but ensures an overwhelming defeat for the Ayatollah's warriors. Most importantly, a surprise closure of the Strait acts to Iran's detriment, unless the strategic environment is such that Tehran feels its back is against the wall and has little to lose from such desperation. Threatening closure is more useful than attempting one, thus, absent exigent circumstances, Iran's leadership will always telegraph its intentions, if only to avoid a situation where they must choose between backing down and losing face or following through and hazard overwhelming defeat.

Though risk of miscalculation remains, Iran has considerably dialed back on
its hostile behavior in the Strait, while increasing its aggressive
activities elsewhere. But if Tehran wants its threats to at least be taken seriously, it may need to again resort to maritime provocations against commercial shipping and the U.S. military. Iran's de-emphasizing of the Gulf in its strategy does not appear to be something that will last much longer.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
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There is a sunken German U-boat just off the coast of Grand Isle,
Louisiana. I was invited to take part in a scuba expedition to try
to salvage parts. But the German government stopped us from doing
so, claiming it was protected by international law, being a gravesite
for those who had perished. Whether there was gold bullion inside
or not, we never were able to find out ...

I suppose so, although I am surprised that it extends to a ship that was at
war with the country whose coast it was sunk off of.

The US was also secretly involved supporting China against Japan long >before Pearl Harbor. WWII actually started in 1937 when Japan escalated >their aggressions against China by invading Shanghai and other areas. The
US supported China with supplies and, I believe, volunteers (like The Flying Tigers).

Unfortunately, the US supported the wrong China, refusing to
recognize the other China as legitimate. It took Jimmy Carter
to change that, many decades later.

Not back then. They had been in a Civil War, but had set aside their differences to join together to fight the Japanese. There was still only
one China until later.

In Japan's view, it was just a warning to the US to stay out of
the Pacific. A limited strike by Japanese military on a US military installation in a US territory, not on civilian targets or in the
mainland USA. A pinprick, which the Japanese military leadership
calculated would be enough to convince FDR to stay out.

I have always found that odd, since we did not seem too keen on getting involved. They really miscalculated there.

The outcry among the American public forced FDR and the Congress
to accept the reality that the US was in a war, started by the
Empire of Japan. Leaving no choice for FDR and the Congress but
to do what none of them were brave enough to do themselves.

No disagreement there.

Mike

---
* SLMR 2.1a * Acid absorbs 10 times its weight in excess reality.
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

True but, if the US had also not been involved in WWI, I am wondering if the attitude towards the US would have been different. Germany was destroyed by the concessions they made during their WWI surrender. To an extent, I feel like they were out for revenge against all of the countries that put them in that position.

Actually, what happened is that the German goverment continued its
generous social spending programs after WW I. Unfortunately the war reparations demanded by the Allies pretty much destroyed the German
economy. In about 1922 or 1923 the German economy collapsed due to
rampant (100 percent per DAY) inflation, and with it went the German government. That provided an avenue for Hitler to get into power.

IIRC, Hitler blamed the German government (for the social programs and
other spending habits) and the WWI allies (for the crippling reparations). Either way, if the US had not been involved, he might not have been so
willing to drag the US into the European conflict. Then again, his
paranoia might have lead him to do so anyway. When you deal with leaders
that are not in their right minds, who knows?

I have thought that an odd time in modern history, to have at least three mentally unstable leaders at the helm of three powers at once... Hitler, Stalin, and Musolini. If I did the research, I could probably find other
times that was happening, but that just seemed like a perfect storm there.

Mike

---
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* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

Would it? Jimmy Carter got our embassy personnel home safe and sound, without resorting to war with Iran. How many American lives is Trump
willing to waste by going to war with Iran for no reason?

No he did not.

Mike

---
* SLMR 2.1a * Justice is lost, Justice is raped, Justice is gone.
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

Would it? Jimmy Carter got our embassy personnel home safe and sound, without resorting to war with Iran. How many American lives is Trump willing to waste by going to war with Iran for no reason?

No he did not.

Carter got 6 to 8 embassy people out who had managed to evade capture by the Iranian revolutionary guards.

Please check this out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Mendez

\%/@rd

--- D'Bridge 3.99
* Origin: Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards (2:292/854)

On 05-27-19 13:11, Mike Powell <=-
spoke to Lee Lofaso about Iran <=-

Would it? Jimmy Carter got our embassy personnel home safe and sound, without resorting to war with Iran.

No he did not.

Actually, he did do that. The hiccup was the fact that the Iranian
leader would not let the homeward bound plane take off until Regan took
the oath of office. The negotiations that brought them home took place
during the ending time of Carter's time in office.

Dale Shipp
fido_261_1466 (at) verizon (dot) net
(1:261/1466)


... Shipwrecked on Hesperus in Columbia, Maryland. 00:48:17, 28 May 2019
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30

--- Maximus/NT 3.01
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Hello Mike,

Would it? Jimmy Carter got our embassy personnel home safe and sound, >>without resorting to war with Iran. How many American lives is Trump >>willing to waste by going to war with Iran for no reason?

No he did not.

Our embassy personnel gave him all the credit.
Had Reagan been in charge, they never would have
made it to the airplane, or even had been able
to leave the embassy building alive.

--Lee

--
We Make Your Wet Dreams Come True

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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Hello Mike,

Would it? Jimmy Carter got our embassy personnel home safe and sound, >>without resorting to war with Iran. How many American lives is Trump >>willing to waste by going to war with Iran for no reason?

No he did not.

Carter writes about it in his autobiography, "Keeping Faith".

--Lee

--
Change Is Cumming

--- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb
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The US was also secretly involved supporting China against Japan

long

before Pearl Harbor.

That wasn't much of a secret.

<snip>

Unfortunately, the US supported the wrong China, refusing to
recognize the other China as legitimate. It took Jimmy Carter
to change that, many decades later.

Not back then. They had been in a Civil War, but had set aside their differences to join together to fight the Japanese. There was still

only

one China until later.

In Japan's view, it was just a warning to the US to stay out of
the Pacific. A limited strike by Japanese military on a US military installation in a US territory, not on civilian targets or in the
mainland USA. A pinprick, which the Japanese military leadership calculated would be enough to convince FDR to stay out.

I have always found that odd, since we did not seem too keen on

getting

involved. They really miscalculated there.

Roosevelt minor wanted the US to get involved in the European fracas -
and in fact had the US Navy (unofficially) involved fighting the German
Navy by 1940.

Roosevelt minor also expected Japan to attack US possessions in the Far
East - primarily the Philippines, Guam, etc. He'd been provoking Japan
for years with embargoes and trade restrictions because of what Japan
was doing in China. He did *not* expect Japan to attack Pearl Harbor.

A minor point about Pearl Harbor ignored by most is that until January
of 1941 the US Pacific Fleet was based at Seattle, San Francisco Bay
and San Diego. Roosevelt minor ordered the capital ships of the fleet
moved to Pearl in January of 1941. It would have been MUCH more
difficult for Japan to simultaneously attack three well defended ports
that all had fighter and long-range bomber bases nearby.

The outcry among the American public forced FDR and the Congress
to accept the reality that the US was in a war, started by the
Empire of Japan. Leaving no choice for FDR and the Congress but
to do what none of them were brave enough to do themselves.

No disagreement there.

Mike

---
* SLMR 2.1a * Acid absorbs 10 times its weight in excess reality.
* Origin: capitolcityonline.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/HTTP (1:2320/105)

--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
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True but, if the US had also not been involved in WWI, I am

wondering if

the attitude towards the US would have been different. Germany

was

destroyed by the concessions they made during their WWI

surrender. To an

extent, I feel like they were out for revenge against all of the

countries

that put them in that position.

Actually, what happened is that the German goverment continued its
generous social spending programs after WW I. Unfortunately the war reparations demanded by the Allies pretty much destroyed the German economy. In about 1922 or 1923 the German economy collapsed due to
rampant (100 percent per DAY) inflation, and with it went the German government. That provided an avenue for Hitler to get into power.

IIRC, Hitler blamed the German government (for the social programs and
other spending habits) and the WWI allies (for the crippling

reparations).

Either way, if the US had not been involved, he might not have been so willing to drag the US into the European conflict. Then again, his
paranoia might have lead him to do so anyway. When you deal with

leaders

that are not in their right minds, who knows?

A little noted fact on that is that Hitler declared war on the US on
December 11, 1941. He did that because of his alliance with Japan.
That provided Roosevelt minor with the excuse to concentrate the war
effort on Europe.
--- Platinum Xpress/Win/WINServer v3.0pr5
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On 25 May 2019, Lee Lofaso said the following...

Hello Greg,

[..]

You may not be aware of this, but Trump ordered 4 out of our 5 >LL>aircraft carriers to enter inside the Persian Gulf, in an effort >LL>to intimidate Iran.

More of like message written in big block style letters, lets call it a
strong persuasion that says Peace through Strength.

That did not work out so well in Afghanistan, where we are still
stuck with no way to get out. That also did not work out so well
in Iraq, which continues to be a snake pit. We need another war
in that area of the world like we need a hole in the head.

Iran does have missiles capable of sinking an aircraft carrier, >LL>along with underwater torpedoes. What do you think the reaction >LL>would be if just one of our aircraft carriers was hit, or sunk? >LL>You are talking 5,000+ dead American sailors.

It would be suicidal to attack the U.S. forces.

Osama bin Laden and his merry group of al-Qaeda did it for years.
GWB allowed him and his merry men to escape Afghanistan. Thank
goodness we had a man from Kenya who saved our ass by actually
having the balls to "terminate with extreme prejudice" that piece
of shit.

So we all have been told, his body wrapped and tossed in the ocean for shark food.

What was it we were all told? Something about the pictures were too disturbing for viewing?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/64)
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Hello Everybody,

Why would Iran do it?

What could possibly have been their motive?

Certainly, the mullahs must have realized what
would have happened if two freighters had been
attacked by the Iranian navy.

The US President would have responded, and not
in a nice way. An immediate strike, without warning,
would have been the result, with not much left for
the mullahs to live in other than open desert.

Was it a mistake, as President Trump suggested?
I don't think so. And neither do my Muslim friends,
some of whom have been to Iran.

You see, most Americans do not understand the
mindset of Muslims. Especially those who are Shiite.
Not that it really matters if a Muslim is Sunni or
Shiite, as they all believe in what their Holy
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) told them.

https://tinyurl.com/y3fdwhnz


The goal of every Shiite Muslim is to coax their
Mahdi out of hiding. And the way to do that is by
starting WWIII. How best to do that? Sink a ship
in the Persian Gulf. That will grab US President
Donald Trump's attention and force their beloved
Mahdi to come to the aid of Muslims everywhere.

Good thing the Iranians only had grenades rather
than something bigger to sink those ships with.

--Lee

--
Pork. The One You Love.

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